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Dating a jacket

Dear F'list,

Several of you are costume historians or historical costumers. Others of you are consummately interested in the details of the past.

I'm hoping you can help date this painting on the basis of the clothing styles therein - the more precisely, the better. A specific year would be miraculous. This is for my mother. She's particularly interested in possible dating for the jacket.

If only this were medieval, I'd have even greater confidence in your abilities, but hopefully you can, nevertheless, help.

Here's the clothing (and the person wearing it).


If you'd like close up details of anything else, let me know.

Comments

( 39 comments — Leave a comment )
flick
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:52 pm (UTC)
Late Victorian or early Edwardian, I would guess. 1890-1900? But yes, it is a period where one can pin it down to years if not seasons, if one knows enough. Good luck!
flick
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:55 pm (UTC)
Actually, based ont he hair and hat, I want to say about 1908?
(no subject) - fjm - Apr. 15th, 2008 04:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
tisiphone
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:55 pm (UTC)
Looks late Victorian, or possibly early Edwardian. Hard to tell exactly because she's sitting down, but I'd venture a guess that it's a walking suit. (See V&A specimen here.)
tisiphone
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:58 pm (UTC)
Yes, definitely - it's from la belle epoque. Between 1890 and 1914, though I'd date it to the earlier half of the period.
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tisiphone - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tisiphone - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tisiphone - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fjm - Apr. 15th, 2008 09:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
fjm
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:57 pm (UTC)
It's the 1910s. You can tell from the hat. The jacket is a very slighty older style, the "mannish" look at the very end of the century (think cycling habits), but the collar and sleeves in particular also suggest 1910s (earlier the sleeves would have been a bit closer to leg o mutton).

You'll have seen the same style in all the street scene movies shot just before WW1.
fjm
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:57 pm (UTC)
Ah yes. Ladykathryn's picture makes my point about the sleeves perfectly.
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
fjm
Apr. 15th, 2008 04:59 pm (UTC)
ps. These are the outfits I've always wanted to wear.
owlfish
Apr. 15th, 2008 05:18 pm (UTC)
So why don't you? (Other than that you'd be thought eccentric, if elegant, if you did so on a daily basis.)
(no subject) - fjm - Apr. 15th, 2008 09:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
maxineofarc
Apr. 15th, 2008 05:14 pm (UTC)
I would put it at the turn of the 19th-20th century, with a slight inclination to the later side because of the hat.
owlfish
Apr. 15th, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC)
The hat has shape but not a lot of detail - any idea what kind of a hat it is?
(no subject) - maxineofarc - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - owlfish - Apr. 15th, 2008 05:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
eulistes
Apr. 15th, 2008 06:00 pm (UTC)
I agree with everything that's been said above about the key items being sleeves, hairdo, and hat, and also with a rough dating to 1908. Definitely not 1892. Here's another useful link to help with the hair/hat combination:

http://www.fashion-era.com/hair_hats_190015.htm

(Note the gradual shift towards a center part in the hairdo and the increasing size of the hat.)

When comparing with fashion plates, we should keep in mind that fashion plates represent the height of fashion at a given moment, and that real people's clothing would have emulated them to varying degrees, depending on personal resources and desire.
eulistes
Apr. 15th, 2008 06:04 pm (UTC)
PS. Gretchen Rogers' Woman in a Fur Hat is one of my favorite paintings from this era.

You want hat? We got hat.
ellid
Apr. 15th, 2008 08:05 pm (UTC)
Who painted it? And I agree about the post-1900 date. There's a picture from around that time of my grandmother and her sister, and the hats look a great deal like this.
owlfish
Apr. 15th, 2008 10:40 pm (UTC)
The artist is named Edouard Vuillard.
(no subject) - ellid - Apr. 15th, 2008 11:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
littleowl
Apr. 15th, 2008 08:39 pm (UTC)
I agree with early to mid 1900s. The skirt looks a little full for 1910-1914 when lines started to slim down.

Could still be late 1890s though, because of the full front on the blouse. Blouses started to slim down through the early 1900s as well.

It looks like there's side button trim on the skirt though which would really point to a 1900s timeframe to me.

As others have pointed out too, the sleeves are slender. 1890s would likely have had wider sleeves up by the shoulder.

The hair is also large but it's split into wings and gathered up behind which points to a 1905-10 timeframe rather than being bouffant in the front, which would be more 1890s.

The ginormous hat high on the head also points to the earlier end of the 1900s rather than strictly mid, when hair styles got sleeker and closer to the head and hat styles start to go 'flatter'.

ETA Pattern/photo links:

1890s shirtwaist with puffy sleeves: http://pastpatterns.com/212.html
1890s women's jacket: http://pastpatterns.com/210.html
Pattern for similar shirtwaist: http://pastpatterns.com/400.html
Pattern for walking skirt ca 1900: http://pastpatterns.com/1865.html
Pattern for skirt ca 1910: http://pastpatterns.com/5239.html
Pattern for suit ca 1902-05: http://pastpatterns.com/7168.html - note the 'pigeon front' on this suit which is absent from the one in the painting.


The woman in the painting has a flat fronted suit with a short jacket but the skirt is full which again, points to the early 1900s but after the 'pigeon front' fashion of the very early 1900s.

So the initial assessment of 1908 is a pretty good one IMHO.

1913 Riding Habit: http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/timelineitem.php?index=191045


Looking through a few more pictures ... I might actually revise my opinion and say that it /could/ possibly be from the early 1890s, though the sleeves aren't as puffy as most fashion plates, but the shape of the skirt and the length of the jacket and the general shape of the sleeves are also consistent with 1890s walking suits. Again it's the hat and hairstyle that look out of place for the 1890s.

1905 suit: http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mwebimages/C_T06_MM/full/M63_25_2a-c.jpg

Appears to be a 1906 suit - don't speak Danish:
http://tidenstoej.natmus.dk/Dragt_Billeder/F4528.jpg

1907 walking costume: http://images.vam.ac.uk/indexplus/db_images/website/large/2006AP4961.jpg

1910 coat and skirt: http://www.manchestergalleries.org/the-collections/search-the-collection/mcgweb/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=2651&size=237x300

Edited at 2008-04-15 09:43 pm (UTC)
printperson
Apr. 15th, 2008 09:59 pm (UTC)
Thanks for all the links! I am closing in on 1908 as the date.
fjm
Apr. 15th, 2008 09:20 pm (UTC)
Also re the hat: there are lots of Punch cartoons from around 1910 because the hats blocked views at the cinema. Hence the old "Ladies, please remove your has" cinema cards.
a_d_medievalist
Apr. 15th, 2008 09:41 pm (UTC)
I'd agree that it's probably 1906-1911. High-ish, but not waspy, waist, straight-ish sleeves, and the hat is really very close to the pics of 1910 hats. The bentwood rocker is also of a type that only began to be made in the 1880s, and neither the room nor the woman seem to be at the height of fashion. I think the hat is the part to concentrate on, but OTOH, that's the least detailed section.
littleowl
Apr. 15th, 2008 09:47 pm (UTC)
On the theory that that is not actually a short jacket ...

1910 "going away suit":
http://www.thebowesmuseum.org.uk/uploads/collections/fullsize/1964-819-cst-934.jpg
printperson
Apr. 15th, 2008 09:57 pm (UTC)
dating a jacket
Thanks to everyone who helped me to date Edouard Vuillard's painting. The date on the label was ca. 1890 but this didn't seem right for a number of reasons. In 1890, Vuillard had a different sense of space and used paint in a different way. Considering style and technique alone, the work was more similar to his works of the first decade of the 1900s. On the basis of your suggestions of 1908-1910, I image-Googled "1980 hat" and found a photograph of a woman with an almost perfect match to her hair, hat, and jacket.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pfsWAruFsRrceA5W79eBcw
gillo
Apr. 15th, 2008 10:27 pm (UTC)
I'd say it's likely to be late Edwardian - 1909-10 perhaps? The sleeves are wrong for the early 1890s, and the hat looks more Edwardian than late Victorian. It looks more like a short bolero jacket, which would put it around the same period, I think - they had them around 1894 too, but generally then the sleeves were ginormous. The skirt's a bit full for anything later than 1910, but there isn't really the "monoshelf bust" of the very early 1800s.
owlfish
Apr. 15th, 2008 10:41 pm (UTC)
You're one of the few people who've commented on the skirt fullness - interesting to know.
(no subject) - gillo - Apr. 15th, 2008 10:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fjm - Apr. 16th, 2008 10:13 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - littleowl - Apr. 16th, 2008 01:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
( 39 comments — Leave a comment )